BRAND NEW! September 2012 - This side-by-side summary compares in detail the water efficiency provisions of ASHRAE SS189.1 (Section 6) for High Performance Green Buildings with proposed ASHRAE standard 191P covering water efficiency in buildings (document is more complete than the 'Green Standards' side-by-side comparison described below). Download 8-page document >>
UPDATED! July 2012 - This comprehensive document lists National Efficiency Standards for 14 water-using fixtures and appliances. The document also lists specifications for WaterSense, Energy Star, and the Consortium for Energy Efficiency, and includes links to a large variety of related information. Download 10-page matrix of standards >>
November 2010 - Various standards and guidelines exist for plumbing fixtures and appliances beyond the U.S. National Standards. These standards and guidelines may be part of voluntary programs such as WaterSense Single-Family New Homes and USGBC LEED for Homes, or codes such as the IAPMO Green Plumbing and Mechanical Code Supplement and the ICC International Green Construction Code. This PDF contains information on 'green' specifications (indoor uses) for a variety of standards, codes, and voluntary initiatives. Download 2-page matrix of 'green' requirements >>
UPDATED! July 2012 - Download SIDE-BY-SIDE comparison of key water-related provisions of these Green Codes & Standards (9 pages):
(1) IAPMO Green Plumbing & Mechanical Code Supplement (2012 version just published)
(2) ICC International Green Construction Code (IgCC), (Final 2012 version just published)
(3) ASHRAE SS189.1 Standard for High Performance Buildings
(4) ASHRAE S191P Standard for Water Efficiency
(pre-release of public review draft; thresholds have not been approved)
(5) ICC 700/NAHB Standard for Residential
(6) California's CalGREEN Code
(NOTE: Corrections or updates to the information within the tables are welcomed.....contact jkoeller@map-testing.com)
May 2012. Comparison of Green codes' and standards' provisions related specifically to landscape and landscape irrigation. Prepared by the Irrigation Association. Permission to post granted by the IA.
Dual-Flush in Commercial Applications....
How are they REALLY being used?
NEW!! January 2013 -- Read this behavioral economics study report that looks at the actual use of dual-flush handles on flushometer toilets in a typical building. The study addressed the question of whether or not people actually choose the 'reduced flush' option. Surprising or intuitive conclusions? Better read this one!
Download original study report by the Univ. of Missouri authors (1.1mb) >>
A summary is also found in the February 2013 issue of the AWWA Journal.
What is a dual-flush toilet fixture? Do dual-flush toilet fixtures actually save water? As more and more toilet manufacturers are offering dual-flush toilets (TODAY: OVER 550 DIFFERENT DUAL-FLUSH MODELS FROM 73 DIFFERENT BRANDS!!), it is important to understand how such designs can provide benefits.
A dual-flush toilet offers 2 options to the user: a flush for liquids only (the 'reduced' flush) and a flush for both solids and liquids (the 'full' flush. Users make the choice as to which button to push or which direction to activate the flush lever. Dual-flush toilets were introduced into the North American marketplace in 1967 by Briggs Plumbing, so the idea is 45 years old! But, the design concept didn't catch on with consumers and it is reported to have died a swift death (which, as it turned out, was only a 30+ year 'hibernation' instead). Re-introduced here in 1998, dual-flush toilets are apparently now with us to stay.
The question always arises among the water efficiency and building design communities as to how much water is 'saved' over the conventional flush toilet (usually flushing at 1.6 gallons/6.0 litres). Because the selection of the flush volume is strictly a behavioral choice, the few analyses of savings have so far focused largely on the 'ratio' of 'reduced' to 'full' flushes in the real world. Read these analyses and discussions to gain a better understanding.....
2010 - Read the summary of an analysis done in 2008 of the various studies conducted over the previous 10 years relating to dual-flush 'ratios'. From Water Efficiency magazine
2012 - A discussion of the calculation of the 'effective' flush volume and how the 'ratio' affects that volume. Download (1 page) >>
June 2005 - This residential end-use study reveals that, in Australia, showers are the largest water use inside the home....next comes clothes washers....then toilets. Quite different from North America, where the toilet is the dominant water user. View TABLE 14 in this Yarra Valley report to see just how residents actually use dual-flush toilets. Download and read this comprensive report (1.4mb) >>>
NEWLY AVAILABLE! Originally issued November 2011 - Another residential end-use study reveals more about Australian water use habits. Go to TABLES 9, 10, 11, and 12 (PAGES 31 & 32) to learn how dual-flush toilets are used in the Australian residential 'real world'. Made available by permission from the Urban Water Security Research Alliance. Check out their Technical Report No. 47: South East Queensland Residential End Use Study: Final Report.
February 2013 - Download this short 280-word summary of the 3 studies (linked above) regarding the use of the 'reduced' flush option in residential and commercial-institutional settings. Download summary >>>
July 2009 - The introduction to North America (in 1999) of the dual-flush toilet stimulated many ‘inventors’ and companies to develop their own products that converted a single-flush tank-type toilets to a dual-flush mode. These products generally do not reduce the flush volume of the full flush (1.6 gpf, 3.5 gpf, = 6.0 Lpf or 13 Lpf or some other volume), but rather add the ability to use a reduced volume for liquids only. In most cases, the reduced volume is 50-70% of the volume of the full flush. To retrofit an existing single-flush gravity-fed fixture, nearly all of the products require the removal of the existing flush valve and replacement with the dual-flush valve. Testing has disclosed that most of these products are NOT universal in their application (that is, they only fit a few models of gravity-fed tank-type toilets), they do NOT necessarily reduce water consumption, and they may fail to meet minimum code requirements related to health and safety! Read this CAUTION STATEMENT that is directed at these issues.
NOTE: These same concerns do NOT exist with dual-flush conversion products for flushometer valve/bowl combination toilets.
Updated February 2013 - Designing or equipping a day care center? A preschool, kindergarten, or primary facility and need 'child-sized' water closets? This listing includes both gravity-fed, tank-type toilets as well as bowls for flushometer applications. Bowl heights range from 10 inches (254mm) to 14 inches (356mm). (Note that adult-sized conventional height bowls and ADA-classified bowls generally range from 15 to 17 inches, or 380mm to 430mm) Go here to download the listing >>
February 2012 -- Read this statement and caution on drainlines by Gauley and Koeller. Download statement (1 page) >>
High Efficiency Plumbing Fixture Direct Install Water Savings Analysis
September 2011 -- A report on water savings from replacement program directed at removing aging inefficient toilets with High-Efficiency Toilets (HETs) in residential and commercial applications. Prepared for California's Sonoma County Water Agency. Download report >>
Read a summary article by Winston Huff >>
July 2011-- A report on the water savings and customer satisfaction with Niagara Stealth 0.8 gallon (3 Litres) vacuum-assisted toilet fixtures installed in older homes in Southern California. Download report >>
August 2011 -- A report on the water savings and maintenance service calls associated with replacment of 192 aging 3.5 gallon (13 Litre) fixtures with 1.0 gallon (3.8 Litre) pressure-assist toilet fixtures in a downtown San Francisco apartment building. Download report >>
March 2010 - This study (among others) says they do not save water. In fact, water use INCREASES when a manually activated toilet fixture valve is replaced with a sensor-activated valve. Read this revealing study to learn more.
September 2009 -- A report on the water savings and resulting reduction in maintenance service calls when 1,030 aging 3.5 gallon (13 Litre) gravity-fed toilets were replaced with 1.0 gallon (3.8 Litre) pressure-assist toilets in the Park 55 Wyndham Hotel in downtown San Francisco. Download report >>
September 2008 - Toilet fixture and pre-rinse spray valve replacements in a 105 room hotel in Calgary, Alberta, resulted in a 47 percent reduction in water consumption. 117 older 3.5g (13L) toilets were replaced with new MaP-tested 1.6g (6L) models (750g minimum). Download report >>
2009 - Non-Residential HETs and Drainline Carry - Bill Gauley and John Koeller issued a CAUTION STATEMENT in 2009 in which they outline the conditions under which HETs probably should and should NOT be used in non-residential applications. This is part of on-going research on this important topic. We will post further information, clarification, and recommendations as more information becomes available.
Toilet Replacement - Potential Best Management Practices
October 2005 - An analysis of the installed base of residential and non-residential toilets in California completed in 2005, along with the potential for additional water savings through fixture replacement with High-Efficiency Toilets (HETs). The report examines the potential water savings that might result from implementing various program scenarios directed at replacing some or all of the existing installed base and/or focusing entirely on new construction. In certain instances, findings for California may be extrapolated and applied to other geographic areas. Download report >>
April 2011 - Read about the history and function of aviation toilets. AND, can you become immobilized on an aircraft vacuum toilet due to air pressure and suction? See what MYTHBUSTERS discovered!
March 2007 - This laboratory study evaluated the current testing media used in the U.S. and Canada to certify toilet fixtures for sale and installation here. Testing with sponges and plastic balls and pellets are required in both the U.S. and Canadian plumbing standards, but how realistic is any test that uses such materials to test for flush performance? This study report is a first scientific step in examining how test results using these materials compare with those obtained through MaP testing. Download report >>
July 2009 - For many years, water displacement devices (dams, bags, bricks, bottles, etc.) have been promoted as an inexpensive means to achieving water savings in tank-type toilets. Do they save water? How much? Are there risks associated with them? This study looked at 5 different common devices and practices and their savings benefits and likely problems. Download report >>
August 2005 - While there has been considerable research into the performance and water savings related to residential toilet fixtures (typically gravity-fed), little work had been completed by 2005 on flushometer valve fixtures for commercial applications. This flushometer testing program included flush volume and performance testing of seven popular commercial bowl models with seven different flushometer valves, for a total of 49 different bowl/valve combinations. Included within the study were measurements of the variations in flush volume that could be achieved with adjustments of the flush valves or the control stop. This study was sponsored by the City of Toronto, and the Regions of Durham and Waterloo in Ontario, Canada. Download report >>
June 2003 - Seattle Public Utilities funded a comprehensive 2003 study of the flush performance of 28 flushometer toilets (8 different models) coupled with 34 manually operated flushometer valves (6 models), all of which were installed on the campus of the University of Washington. A battery of tests was run on each of the eight toilet models that included various combinations and amounts of test media consisting of toilet paper, seat protectors, tofu, and concentrated brine solution. Download a copy of the study report.
November 2003 - Read this DEBATE between advocates of two different toilet technologies and learn of the advantages and disadvantages of each.
2002 - The National Association of Home Builders Research Center, in cooperation with Seattle Public Utilities and the East Bay Municipal Utility District of Oakland, CA, released the water closet fixture performance study that was underway for much of 2002. The report details the results of extensive performance testing (with sponges and paper wads) on 49 of the most popular low-flow toilets in the United States and Canada. Recognizing that the use of sponges and paper wads might NOT accurately replicate “real-world” demands placed upon a toilet fixture, this study was followed by the development of the MaP testing protocol in 2003, sponsored by 22 water provider interests. Download these 3 documents: (1) performance testing report, (2) test results index, (3) comparing results with CR Magazine.
December 1999 - The Metropolitan Water District of Southern California commissioned Honeywell DMC to perform a survey of 1,300 individuals who installed new gravity-fed 1.6-gpf (6.0 Lpf) toilets in 1998 and 1999. A total of 13 different toilet models were rated by customers on a variety of important performance factors, the results being reported in this document.
May 2001 - The Metropolitan Water District of Southern California undertook to test three new toilet models that had recently been introduced into the marketplace. Eight fixtures were each subjected to 250,000 flush cycles. Where potential problems appeared, manufacturers addressed those problems and improved products resulted. Download report >>
March 2001 - 15 water providers in the U.S. sponsored a comprehensive toilet testing program at the Stevens Institute of Technology. Designed to evaluate the efficacy of a proposed new test protocol for the national standard, this year-long effort compared the performance of 18 different gravity-fed and pressure-assist toilet models. Download report >>
October 2000 - This study, sponsored by the City of Phoenix and the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, is a "one-of-a-kind" project, because it was the first study to look at 1.6g (6.0L) toilet fixtures of 1991-92 vintage to see how they were performing after 8 years of use. The University of Arizona Research Center data-logged 170 homes and analyzed the results for flush volume, double-flushing, leakage and other factors. This was followed by household surveys to determine the types of installed toilet fixtures and owner satisfaction with those fixtures. Download report >>
August 2001 - This comprehensive field study from 2001 documents some very interesting characteristics of common gravity-fed toilet fixtures. In particular, ULF toilets operating at abnormally low flush volumes (well below their rated flush volume of 1.6g - 6.0L) were field measured to determine just what was really happening inside the home. Download report >>
November 2012 - For years the siren call has been for reductions in water consumption by plumbings fixtures, appliances, and other equipment in the home and business. As a result, some drainlines (which were constructed to requirements developed over 50 years ago!) never anticipated that liquid flows would be cut by 75% and more, 'starving' those drainlines of sufficient water to move waste. This simple 1-page table clearly illustrates the very significant reductions in water use since 1980 by common water-using fixtures and appliances. Download the table >>>
June 2012 - Following up on the drainline study done in 2005, we looked again at drainline waste transport, comparing the North American siphonic toilet design with the European/Australian washdown toilet design. Which design results in longer waste transport in a typical residential installation? Read this 2-page summary of a simple evaluation comparing the two approaches.
Sept/Oct 2012 - Mechanical Business (Australia) magazine published a short article on the siphonic/washdown controversy.
Read the article here >>
The PERC is comprised of six leading North American organizations (IAPMO, ICC, ASPE, PMI, PHCC-NA, AWE), each very committed to achieving water use efficiency, the integrity of building infrastructure, and public health and safety. The PERC's first priority was to study commercial building drainlines and the transport of waste when those drainlines are starved of water. GO HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE PERC INITIATIVE.
December 2010: PERC signs an historic agreement with the Australian ASFlow working committee on drainline transport of waste. Download that Memorandum of Understanding here.
Also go HERE for the 'official' PERC page
June 2012 - Read this interesting article from Australia on 'flushable wipes'. The may be 'flushable' but are they right for our building drainlines? Download article>>>
February 2012 -- Read this statement and caution on drainlines by Gauley and Koeller. Download statement (1 page) >>
July 2011 - A 5-page brief summarizing current concerns over waste transport in building drainlines and municipal sewers. Download document >>
2009 - Non-Residential HETs and Drainline Carry - Bill Gauley and John Koeller issued a CAUTION STATEMENT in 2009 in which they outline the conditions under which HETs probably should and should NOT be used in non-residential applications. This is part of on-going research on this important topic. We will post further information, clarification, and recommendations as more information becomes available.
World Plumbing Review (2007) Testing Times Down Under - Low Flow Toilets and Drainline Carry - An article in a 2007 issue of World Plumbing Review (Issue 1, 2007) covers extensive drainline waste transport testing performed in Australia. Once you get through some of the sales "pitch" for a manufacturer’s products, there are some interesting observations in this article.
July 2006 - In connection with release of its specification for High-Efficiency Tank-Type toilets, WaterSense commissioned a study of drainline transport related to toilets in residential dwellings. This brief, 4-page analysis follows on the heels of the March 2005 drainline study shown below. Download the 4-page document >>>
March 2005 - As a consequence of the concerns over reduced flows in building drainlines as a result of the installation of water-efficient fixtures and appliances, eight Canadian organizations sponsored the "Evaluation of Water-Efficient Toilet Technologies to Carry Waste in Drainlines." Those organizations were: Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the cities of Calgary and Toronto, the province of Manitoba, the regions of Peel, Waterloo, and Durham, and the Ontario Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Download full report >>
2008 - Study report from the Environment Agency looking at the "Impact of reductions in water demand on wastewater collection and treatment" This 81-page report looks at building drainline impacts and sewer infrastructure. Download report (2mb) >>>
2006 - With funding support from the U.S. Department of Energy, Texas A&M's Energy Systems Lab conducted a drainline transport study. The final study report was released in 2006. Download report >>
Go here: www.toiletflapper.org
This comprehensive field study of the durability of toilet flappers, and the habits and practices of homeowners with respect to flapper replacement and use of in-tank bowl cleaning tablets, involved the inspection of 892 randomly selected toilet fixtures in homes throughout California. Products from 14 manufacturers with production dates from 1992 to 2002 were measured for flush volume and subjected to a flapper inspection. Download report >>
These three laboratory studies by the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California were a catalyst in the plumbing industry’s advancements in flapper materials durability. As chlorine-based drop-in bowl cleaning tablets made their way into the consumer marketplace (and into their toilet tanks), flapper failure and toilet leakage became a significant concern of the plumbing industry and the water authorities. Beginning in 1994 and working together, more durable products resulted. Download all three study reports here:
MWD (1998) Toilet Flapper Materials Integrity Tests
MWD (2000) Toilet Flapper Materials Integrity Tests
MWD (2001) Supplement - Toilet Flapper Materials Integrity Tests
April 2008 - Why were toilet flappers getting so much attention from water conservation professionals and manufacturers in the 1990s? Read about the evolution of the flapper problems through the 1990s until today. Download 6-page summary >>
November 1998 - The Metropolitan Water District of Southern California focused on the compatibility (or incompatibility) of flappers found in the traditional after-market (at Home Depot, Lowe’s, and hardware stores) with the typical gravity-fed toilet fixtures found in most residential households. A total of 50 aftermarket flappers were fitted to 24 different toilets. Flush volumes were measured and reported. Download report >>
2007 - Study conducted by SBW Consulting Inc. to determine the baseline characteristics of existing urinals in the SWP service area and investigate the feasibility of retrofitting the existing urinal stock with alternative water efficiency measures. The data collected in the study was analyzed and used to form a series of observations and recommendations regarding preferred efficiency options. Download report (5.7mb) >>
August 2011 - Read this interesting article from Plumbing Connection Magazine (permission to post granted by Connection Magazines Pty Ltd.)
September 2011 - Read this article with an intimate view on the topic by the highly respected Julius Ballanco, P.E.
2006 - In 2004-2005, Dr. Mete Demiriz of Gelsenkirchen University of Applied Sciences in Gelsenkirchen Germany completed a study of dry (non-water) urinals in the University’s very extensive laboratory facilities dedicated to plumbing technologies. When the study report and presentation were reviewed by water efficiency advocates and by plumbing system professionals in North America, it set off alarms. Those alarms were related to the build-up of solids in the drainlines behind the non-water urinals. The findings of the study were disputed, the reasoning being that plumbing codes and other conditions in Germany are not identical to those in North America. As such, many reviewers felt that study findings could not be applied here.
If you download and review the study report and accompanying presentation, you are encouraged to also read the refuting technical response offered by Falcon Waterfree Technologies and the two other reviews (review #1 - review #2) as well.
2008 - Report by manufacturers disputing concerns over drainline build-up of solids. Technical and non-technical issues are discussed.
Download report (3.1mb) >>
2009 - A report by World Plumbing Info on research into the effects reduced flows are having on drainage systems in buildings - specific focus on non-water urinals by the Australasian Scientific Review of Reduction of Flows on Plumbing and Drainage Systems (ASFlow) Committee
Go here: http://www.worldplumbinginfo.com/article/waterless-urinals-research
November 2002 - One of the issues brought forth by the opponents of non-water urinals is odor. Of course, all urinal fixtures will yield odors if not cleaned or maintained properly. Furthermore, odors frequently result from a lack of cleaning of the floor surfaces beneath the urinal as well. Unfortunately, in most cases, odors have been unfairly attributed to the non-water urinal technology when the real cause may lie elsewhere. Several studies of odors from urinal installations have been completed in the last six years. The PNNL study provides important information from an independent source on this subject. Download report >>
August 2004 - Read this crazy initiative by a German manufacturer.....check it out for yourself. We'll say no more!!
2008 - Are urine-separating toilets in our future? Read this!
2007 - U.S. AIR FORCE: Read this 2-page summary.
2005 - U.S. ARMY: Read this 2-page summary.
2008 - U.S. NAVY: Read this 2-page summary.
October 2005 - An analysis of the installed base of residential and non-residential urinals in California completed in 2005, along with the potential for additional water savings through fixture replacement with High-Efficiency Urinals (HEUs). The report examines the potential water savings that might result from implementing various program scenarios directed at replacing some or all of the existing installed base and/or focusing entirely on new construction. In certain instances, findings for California may be extrapolated and applied to other geographic areas. Download report >>
June 2012 - Article in the IAPMO Official magazine, which summarizes the results of studies showing sensor-activated faucets do not save water. Read this short article to understand why.
March 2010 - This study (among others) says they do not save water. In fact, water use INCREASES when a manually activated faucet is replaced with a sensor-activated faucet. Read this revealing study to learn more.
2000 - Thames Water Research & Technology conducted "The Millennium Dome “Watercycle” experiment: to evaluate water efficiency and customer perception at a recycling scheme for 6 million visitors." Over the period of one year, faucet use was measured at both manual and infrared (sensor-operated) fixtures. The results may surprise you. Download report >>
1997-99 - Study conducted in 1997-1999 and directed at photovoltaic water heating. As part of a Field Test of a Photovoltaic Water Heater (Report No. HI-02-8-3), faucet use was measured for one year each for manual and sensor-activated taps. Study results are consistent with the findings displayed in the two reports above. Download report >>
2006 - Study examined savings potential of a spray flow and aerator flow faucet and stop valve activated by foot pedal or sensor. Presentation made at CIB 2006. Download report >>
2010 - Study by Mowris et.al. of showerhead performance and customer satisfaction with a view toward developing California showerhead flow and performance requirements.
Download study report >>
Download PDF of study presentation >>
2011 - Analysis of multiple-head showers and single showerheads by the California Codes and Standards Team dealing with reduced flows and resulting energy savings. Incorporates findings of the Mowris study listed above and evaluates customer satisfaction, lower flow rates, and other factors.
Download report >>
2006 - Study by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory evaluating different action scenarios directed at reducing water and energy consumption in showers. Also addresses the multiple showerhead issue as well as tub spout leakage. Download report (1.9mb) >>
2008 - Study by SBW Consulting for Seattle energy and water utilities quantified the savings potential by visit and measuring consumption in a sample of 71 homes int he region. Before and after measurements of water and energy taken as efficient products replaced existing products. Download report >>
2006 - Study examined savings potential of a thermostatic mixing shower head with stop button for shower in a bathroom. Presentation made at CIB 2006. Download report >>
2006 - This study provides a greater understanding of the physics relating to the performance of the spray emanating from a showerhead and the potential to reduce flow rate while maintaining good performance. The study is a quantitative approach using computer models validated against experimental data. Download report (1.2 mb) >>
2008 - Answer: NO. This study commissioned by Australia's Federal WELS (Water Efficiency Labelling and Standards) Scheme reveals that, on average, instantaneous gas-fired water heaters wasted 17 to 24 gallons per day (64.6 to 93.1 litres per day) of water when compared to a storage type water heater.
Download report (2.0 mb) >>
2010 - Answer: YES. This study by Brookhaven National Laboratory for the Minnesota Office of Energy Security took a different approach and concluded that potential savings did exist.
Download report (3.0 mb) >>
2011 - WHAT DO OTHERS SAY? Go here to AskTheBuilder.com
View this chart that compares commercial and residential dishwasher water use with hand washing (using a standard Energy Star 'load').
Go HERE for more information and resource links on RESIDENTIAL dishwashers.
Go HERE for more information and resource links on COMMERCIAL dishwashers
"GREEN" DESIGN & CONSTRUCTION
December 2009 - Read this article about the proliferation of numerous 'green' requirements.
U.S. "Green" Standards, Codes, & Voluntary Initiatives
November 2010 - Various standards and guidelines exist for plumbing fixtures and appliances beyond the U.S. National Standards. These standards and guidelines may be part of voluntary programs such as WaterSense Single-Family New Homes and USGBC LEED for Homes, or codes such as the IAPMO Green Plumbing and Mechanical Code Supplement and the ICC International Green Construction Code. This PDF contains information on 'green' specifications (indoor uses) for a variety of standards, codes, and voluntary initiatives. Download 2-page matrix of 'green' requirements >>
March 2012 - Download & compare the water-related provisions of these Green Codes & Standards (4 pages):
(1) IAPMO Green Plumbing & Mechanical Code Supplement
(2) ICC International Green Construction Code (IgCC), public draft version 2
(3) ASHRAE SS189.1 Standard for High Performance Buildings
(4) ASHRAE S191P Standard for Water Efficiency (pre-release of public review draft)
(5) ICC 700/NAHB Standard for Residential
(6) California's CalGREEN Code
January 2010 - Assessment of the water savings potential of the Aqus system designed for capture and reuse of water from a lavatory sink. Download report >> (Note: 8mb)
May 2004 - A field study of the actual use of pool covers rebated by a Southern California water agency. Download report >> (Note: 4.8mb)
1943 - In your leisure time, listen to this interesting story from August 10 (NOTE: 29mb and 30 minutes long).